Monday, August 16, 2010

Bethlehem (Palestine)

The Hebrew Bible identifies Beit Lehem as the city David was from and the location where he was crowned as the king of Israel. The New Testament Gospels of Matthew and Luke identify Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus of Nazareth. The town is inhabited by one of the oldest Christian communities in the world, though the size of the community has shrunk due to emigration. Bethlehem has a Muslim majority, but is also home to one of the largest Palestinian Christian communities.




  • Sample :

Full scale


  • Brief anthropological analysis :

- Type 1 :
Dark complexion (black eyes, black hair, tanned skin, ...), leptomorphic, leptoprosopic, arched convex nose, close-set eyes, full lips, deeply drawn lines around the oral cavity
~ Mediterranean



This phenotype is dubbed "Arabid" by most authors. It is undoubtedly very common amongst the autochtonous people of the Middle-East and North Africa.


- Type 2 : Dark complexion (black eyes, black hair, rather dark skin, ...), brachymorphic, coarse features, large face, massive and low-rooted puffy nose that can get convex, full lips, somehow wide-set and rather slanted eyes
~ Alpinoid/Berid




This type is quite original with some individuals showing rather original features that can be found from Morocco to India as far as I know. It seems to be widespread in Egypt, the Arabian peninsula and Iraq as well : more samples will be needed to detect the full extent of those features. I'm a bit clueless about that type for the moment. Somehow, some individuals do remind me of a young Arafat.




  • Final morphotypes :

46 comments:

  1. "I'm a bit clueless about that type for the moment. Somehow, some individuals do remind me of a young Arafat".

    The young and the old Arafat too. It's the 'Arafatoid' type. ;)

    Seriously, I suspect it's a Palestinian only type, though maybe occasionally found among other groups. I'd say it's withing the Mediterranean group rather than the Alpine one (doubts, can't find a good profile of Yasir Arafat) and may well approach the Arabid in some aspects.

    The guys you call Alpinoid (first row, specially the first two) remind me rather of Syrians I know. I'm not sure right now if they are truly Alpinid (i.e. brachicephalic) but I'll check next time I go to the kebab (though if they do not close down the next general strike, I'm just not going again).

    Your Mediterraneans instead look Balcanic/Italic looking to me in some cases. Second one looks like Serbian while third one is like some Italians which are very markedly brachicephalic longfaced and therefore Dinaric.

    Last guy of the second row in this group is like Steve Buscemi, specially in some of his roles.

    C3 is a total outlier: she looks Mayan.

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  2. I found this very interesting. Thanks!

    The church I attend has many of these types. There are Syrians, Palestians, Lebanese, Serbs, Greeks, Russians and a few North Atlantic types like me. Next time I'm there I'm going to look more closely for some of the features you've identified.

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  3. I think your Alpinoid/Berid tend more to a Berid-like type because I doubt the brachycephaly of most of them.

    The total series is not that different from southern Italians except for the strange-looking little girl in the last row.

    voyager

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  4. They don't look that different from jews, google Diego Gvirtz (an Argentine ashkenazi) and compare him to the bald guy in the bottom corner

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  5. What about Israelis? never though about doing an article about the native population of the area>? instead of doing an article on some saudi, jordanian, syrian and egyptian immigrants, who are arab-shifted genetically.

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  6. @Amichai:

    Palestinians are very unique in their autosomal signature and do not look really much "Arab-shifted" (generic Arabs, although there's surely some minor influence) but distinctly Palestinian. While genetic studies on this matter are largely participated by Israelis (often good scholars but with an ideological bias that is notable in the way the conclusions are written, trying to circumvent the obvious) I think that the case is very very clear since the studies of these latest years (2010 and 2011):

    1. Palestinians show clear indications being distinct and locally rooted, showing also high diversity what makes impossible it's an effect of "inbreeding" (as happens with Druzes or Ashkenazis for instance).

    2. Modern Western Jews (specially the not really inbred Sephardic Jews, who are easier to analyze) look original from somewhere near Cyprus, not Palestine, showing always the greatest affinity with Cyprus, then with Turkey and finally with Lebanon. I understand that this means that they are roughly "Cilicians" from Tarsus and nearby areas where it's known that there was a huge diaspora Jewry in ancient times.

    We know that these diaspora Jews were already there in Roman times (after just a few centuries of existence as such diaspora) many more than there were in Palestine before the Roman-made genocide (which surely spared many, notably Christian Jews, who opposed the revolt, and are since then known as "Palestinians"). We also know that, until political Christianity and Islam banned Rabbinic Judaism from proselytizing, it did so and did often (actually Christianity is a particularly successful Jewish proselytist sect but not the only one known from old: whole kingdoms and tribes were converted to Judaism in Kurdistan, Yemen, Eastern Europe or North Africa).

    Modern Jews are mostly descendants not of the ancient Jews from Canaan/Israel/Judea/Palestine but from highland West Asians which would seem to be closest to modern Cypriots (although IMO Cilicia is a more likely real origin).

    For the reference (at my blogs and in chronological order as I discovered this matter):
    · http://leherensuge.blogspot.com.es/2010/06/genetic-comparisons-of-basques-and-jews.html
    · http://leherensuge.blogspot.com.es/2010/06/jews-are-phoenicians-palestinians-are.html
    · http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2012/01/spehardi-jews-in-context-of-levant-and.html

    That is the reality: Palestinians are largely descendants from the ancient Jews (and their farmer predecessors probably) and Jews are essentially descendants of other populations who converted to Judaism, in the case of Western Jews (Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Moroccan) they seem to come from near Cyprus (Cilicia surely).

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  7. Still, don't you think it would be nice to compare the israelis and the palestinians?

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    Replies
    1. It's always interesting but I'd rather look at Jewish-Israelis from the point of view of their origins, probably it's more interesting to compare Ashkenazim with Yemeni Jews, for example, than a random sample of Jerusalem Jews whose local roots do not exist (at the very least not in the last two millennia).

      Heraus is trying to collect samples that are as representative as possible from each area or ethnic group, hence he discards those who by surname or other reasons appear to be recent immigrants. Recent immigrants have whatever rights but they are not representative of the native population, what is what interest us as amateur anthropologists.

      Delete
    2. Well this is clearly cherry-picking on your side. everybody knows yemeni jews are converts. but should israel have done? let them be killed by the arabs of yemen??
      not surprising considering your anti-zionist stances. i've seen those on dienekes' blog.

      Delete
    3. Yemeni and all Jews are (essentially) converts, that's what I think that is obvious in their genetic makeup. Converts from some 2000+ years ago but converts from (largely) Southern Anatolia in any case.

      I'm not going to discuss politics here. I have a distinct blog for that.

      Delete
    4. still i'm not sure abuot that. basically there are twom amjor groups of jews: European(ashkenazim and sephardim) and Mizrachim/Eastern. there is'nt much difference between ashkenazim and sephardim on a genetic level. the difference is mainly between the 2 groups i think. But still, in Razib Khan's blog he said that 2 jews, for example, one from pakistan and one from poland, share a lot of markers IBD. so maybe they are'nt all just converts..

      Delete
    5. I have no idea about Pakistani Jews (I did not even know they existed - although I do know from an older paper that Indian Jews typically have local mtDNA lineages, indicating that their maternal lines are local).

      I know that there is an Iraqi-Iranian group of Jews (in Atzmon 2010) which is clearly distinct from the Western Jews (Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Moroccan). Iraqi Jews, who are a bit more intermediate, are more distant from the Western Jewish group than North Italians, French, Palestinians and Druzes. Iranian Jews are more distant than even Bedouins (and Sardinians and Adygeis) and almost as distinct from Western Jews as we Basques are.

      In other words: I who have some 60% Basque ancestry, 25% North Italian and the rest Spanish... am more close genetically to your average Sefardi or Ashkenazi Jew than any Iranian Jew is.

      The difference is also apparent in Behar 2010, where Western Jews clearly have some 1/3 of "Euro-Mediterranean" component, which is lacking in other Asian Jews like those from the Caucasus. Being again most similar to Cypriots.

      Between Cypriots and Turks in fact in my own mini-study and it is well known that Anatolia hosted the bulk of the Roman Era Jewry, centered around Tarsus, which was also a focus of Christian proselytism (after all Christianity was originally a Jewish sect).

      Maybe if you can point me to the relevant entry by Razib (link), I could say something more. He may have committed an error (over-reading in other indicators of less generalized Jewish affinity), you may have a confused memory... or I may be missing something (doubt it but prove me wrong).

      Otherwise, I stand by the previous: I am probably closer genetically to your average Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jew than a regular Iranian Jew.

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    6. And what I say for me I say for a Russian... it's not just a Southern European thing. Russians, Basques and Iranian Jews all share the Fst=0.016 distance to Western Jews (0.14 to Turkish Jews, again the same).

      However Iranian Jews are closer to Palestinians (Fst=0.017) than most distant European references (Basques and Russians) are (Fst=0.021). Palestinians are doubly closer to Western Jews (Fst=0.008, Fst=0.005 to Turkish Jews) than Iranian Jews (Fst=0.016, as mentioned above).

      Jews are distinct because of, largely, endogamy, but each mayor Jewish population is different in their own way, usually showing no meaningful affinity to most other Jews in the genetic aspect.

      Delete
    7. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/06/genetics-the-jewish-question/
      it appears i did'nt look into it closely though, since in the ibd table, they did'nt list iranian jews. it still shows though that western jews are close to each other irrespective of where their origins lie.
      But still, Western Jews and Eastern Jews share the common levantine/west asain ancestry, from the time when the 2 diverged. Still, it's not like all Persians from, for example, Iran are that close to each other. I'm sure there's a huge difference between a Persian from western Iran and his countryman from Eastern Iran.
      And in what blog do you discuss politics?

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    8. and btw, funny that you should mention you being a basque and closer to jews than palestinians, because some basques kinda look jewish.
      example:
      http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NsKBKeO0Py0/T4hQygBJhfI/AAAAAAAAACs/HwSyBJHKJdk/s1600/Zone+Soccer+Player_Fernando+Llorente+Torres_4.jpg
      well he's the only basque that i know of and he looks somewhat jewish. anyway, i'll have to look for more pictures of atletic bilbao players.

      Delete
    9. Well, Torres Llorente are Spanish (not Basque) surnames, even if he is Basque by place of birth. He reminds me to some Andalusian type Heraus and I have discussed in the past. He does not look typically Jewish to me (not the kind of Jewish types I can recall, certainly not Armenoid, which is the most typical Jewish type in any case).

      When I say Basques and Russians, anyhow, I mean "even the most distant European", because these two are the most distant samples from West Asia by the West in Atzmon's study (maybe British/CEU are even farther? IDK but I lack the datum and should not be too much anyhow).

      "... western jews are close to each other irrespective of where their origins lie"...

      Exactly my point, or the first part of it.

      ... "it's not like all Persians from, for example, Iran are that close to each other. I'm sure there's a huge difference between a Persian from western Iran and his countryman from Eastern Iran".

      Surely there are at least some differences. It's always a matter of degree. That's why I used comparisons in my discussion with you, not just Jews vs. Jews or vs. Jews and Levantine peoples but vs. a wide array of populations, including very remote "cousins" like Basques or whatever.

      In general Razib's entry does not seem to contradict what I said but rather support it to some extent at least. After all he's also discussing the Atzmon 2010 paper, which is one of my clues and clearly show Iranian-Iraqi Jews very divergent from Western ones. So divergent that their relationship with the other Jews is not trivial, similar to that of Basques. Should I do "aliyah"? (Not that I want, just being itchy).

      My political blog, as you ask, is "http://forwhatwearetheywillbe.blogspot.com/" You will probably find entries re. Palestine (incl. of course Israel) but you won't like it (red content, strongly anti-zionist for reason of being antiimperialist, antifascist, antiracist and anticolonialist).

      I think we can keep the discussion strictly scientific here (or at my anthropology-oriented blogs) instead. It should be more interesting unless you are an unusually open-minded Zionist (I have yet to find one, more so one that remains Zionist after opening his/her mind).

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    10. Well i'd like to think of myself as open-minded. Of course i'll never agree if you'll say you support the palestinians' goals of throwing jews into the sea, but that's just extremism. Maybe i'll talk to you about that in your political blog.
      Regarding genetics, there is a divergence between mizrachi jews and western jews, however both groups still have a strong levantine component. it's not like the indian or ethiopian jews who always cluster in india or ethiopia. And i certainly don't agree with your stance that the palestinains have distinct genetic signatures. I've seen videos of a hamas leader admitting that the gazans are basically egyptians, hence the name El-Masri. also. West Bankers are Jordanians, etc..
      Not to say that some of the palestinains are indeed descendants of the ancient hebrews, but those are usually certain clans, like the Sawarka. There's even a guy that thinks if he can prove the blood connections he'll bring peace. Silly dream.

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    11. As you should know, 85% of Gazans are refugees, or rather deportees, from what is now "Israel" (or sometimes East Jerusalem, West Bank). So what you say makes little to no sense: they come from what is now "Central Israel" and neighboring areas. See for example this UNWRA map.

      Gazans are generally not Gazans by origin.

      "Not to say that some of the palestinains are indeed descendants of the ancient hebrews"...

      I'd say that there is enough distinctiveness and diversity among Palestinians to strongly justify the theory that they are direct descendants (with some admixture, of course, nobody is "purebred") from ancient Hebrews and their precursors (Canaanites, possibly even Neolithic and Epipaleolithic local cultures). They are in any case clearly distinct from the "generic Arabs" that the Zionist discourse suggest. They have very strong specific Palestinian personality and this is not caused by mere inbreeding because they are among the most genetically diverse peoples in Eurasia.

      So if I had to bet (and I'd take a strong bet) I'd bet for modern Palestinians being largely descendants from historical Jews and their predecessors. They converted to monophysitic Christianity and later to Islam (some did not: there's 10% of Palestinians who are Christians and there used to be another 10% who retained the ancient Hebrew religion and are now dissolved inside the amorphousness of the "Israeli" neo-identity).

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    12. "They have very strong specific Palestinian personality and this is not caused by mere inbreeding because they are among the most genetically diverse peoples in Eurasia. "
      you mean personality, as in, soul right? cause nobody can have a "genetic identity" if he's "most gentically diverse in eurasia". Of course, I don't belive they have a "palestinian identity", since they only came to life after 1967, but that's a whole other subject.
      and it's not like palestinians and jews don't look alike at all, as you're obviously suggesting for your causes. take a look at this guy:
      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/SalimTuama.png/200px-SalimTuama.png
      he looks pretty jewy. he's a famous israeli arab footballer that played for the israeli national team and.. he would probably lough at you for your stances. just a side-note.
      "So what you say makes little to no sense: they come from what is now "Central Israel" and neighboring areas. See for example this UNWRA map."
      i'll never take anything unrwa says as truth. you know, there is a main UN agency for refugees. of course, they had to invite one seperate from all the other refugees in the world for the poor pallies. interesting indeed. and i don't need your data, especially since it comes from UNRWA, since like i said, i saw a MEMRI video of a Hamas leader admitting Gazans are egyptians, that's enough of a proof for me.
      this video:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3-GBsGmE54
      He admits it himslef. there's no better proof for what i say honestly. also, you can see that he's very focused on religion(al-aqsa and all the other shit), NOT NATIONALITY.
      UNRWA are trying to make the "refugee" label seem eternal, counting refugees' descendants living comfortably in chile as "refugees". UNRWA is a joke.
      and i took a look at your blog. i think you should've replaced, on the list of the "antis" that lead to you being anti-zionist, all the "antiimperialist, antifascist, antiracist and anticolonialist" with only one other anti. especialyl the anti colonialist and atni fascist practically made me laugh.
      and also sticking your nose into other nations' business is bad. I don't give a fuck about the Basque conflict, and i don't know a single fact about it to be honest. therefore, i don't make generalizations about basque or spainiards.
      and you don't have to be armenoid to look jewish. i know many east-med jews. my brother is nordic and looks jewish. hell, he's not that far removed from Llorente.

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    13. You can freely discuss the issue, I'm not against political comments being made on this blog.

      My only comment about Israel is that I find the whole project a bit far-fetched, it's very 19th century-minded (zionism is just another avatar of the many national movements of those times, one which went as far as recreating a language and inventing surnames), a byproduct of romanticism. As far-fetched as hypothetical projects about Gypsies relocating to Pakistan when they've clearly lost touch with their partial ancestral land (they've assimilated many people during their course) ... I believe that me (a Pyrenean Gascon) learning Basque would be even less irrational than a German-speaking urban Jew from Baden migrating to the Middle-East to become a peasant in a desert ... which doesn't belong to him in the first place (I don't need to migrate to live my Bascophile fantasy, that's an asset).

      On an individual basis, I believe everyone is entitled to try a new life wherever he wishes to and Jews had done it for centuries with many of them migrating to the Holy Land out of religious and ethnic beliefs (just like there was an Armenian community in Jerusalem). Expelling autochtonous people - who had become Muslim because of historical events, but a large Christian community remained - to make this dream come true is despicable. Tel Aviv was enough to relocate Jews not wishing to live in Europe anymore after 1945 and agreements could have been found with local Arabs for food and water supply ... French Pieds-Noirs (who were Mediterranean migrants BTW) never colonized Algeria as deeply as Israelis did with Palestinian lands, they were mostly in towns as civil servants (and had been there since the 19th century). We know their fate in the 60s ...

      I don't wish for modern-day Israelis the fate of Pieds-Noirs but they should accept that the descendants of the people who were expelled are entitled to come back and live where their ancestors had been living for millenia. That or financial compensation for those willing to relinquish their claim. Property is a right one inherits from birth.

      Delete
    14. I mean "personality" as in distinctiveness: Palestinians are more distinct from anyone else in West Asia (or even West Eurasia in general): they are anything but the "generic Arabs" of the Zionist myth. They must be deeply rooted locally. How deeply is impossible to tell with certainty but I'd hunch Neolithic, certainly older than Iron Age Romans and Jews.

      "cause nobody can have a "genetic identity" if he's "most gentically diverse in eurasia""

      That's the most interesting stuff: they do. And they are probably the only ones in such a small area that have such a combination.

      However this may be partly because they are a mosaic of many local subgroups. But this I can't tell because I do not have the media or know-how to do a half-decent research myself and they have not been studied much separately, mostly in the sidelines of Judeocentric genetic studies. Science is neutral and objective but scientists and universities are often biased.

      My best incursion so far was the already mentioned mini-study on where do (Sephardic) Jews stand in West Asia (so I also "sinned" of Judeocentrism here) and they do include (at K=6, my main snapshot) 5/6 components above the 5% level, two of which I labeled "Palestine 1" (shared with Western Jews but thrice more relevant in Palestine) and "Palestine 2" (almost exclusive of Palestine with some spillover to Jordan).

      Besides, they also have important presence of the "Jordan" component (19%, so high that it could well be dubbed "Palestine 3", specially if we consider that Jordan is a modern creation), the "Lebanon" one and to some extent the "Highlander" component (>75% among Turks, Cypriots and Western Jews), also important in Syria-Lebanon-Jordan and actually lowest among Palestinians from all the people of the region...

      This Highlander component, so dominant across the board (with the Palestinian partial exception) I speculate it has to do with PPNB Neolithic. But this is not set on stone, of course.

      I even reached as far in the analysis as to K=9 (5/9 components would be more important among Palestinians and some other fine detail) but the general picture does not vary much.

      I know from Behar 2010 that Palestinians do contrast quite a bit with peninsular Arabs and other "Neo-Arabs" like Iraqis, so their distinctiveness is not an illusion. I can only wait for Behar to do it (??? being a bit sarcastic: he's done good genetic research in Africa... but I doubt he will frontally go against the Zionist ideological paradigm by evidencing this fact of Palestinian local deep roots - it's "too political" and so far he's been trying hard to "demonstrate", with no success, the alleged local roots of Jews in Palestine).

      Someone will anyhow... eventually.

      Delete
    15. "... he looks pretty jewy"...

      Arab to me. He's quite neutral but I would not doubt his "arabness" if I met him out in the street (we host the only mosque in Bilbao, so it's full or Arabs and other Muslims, and delicious kebabs!)

      "i'll never take anything unrwa says as truth"

      That's the problem: wishful Zionist thinking, only what the Great Sanhedrin (or equivalent) says can be accepted, no? The rest of us are more serious.

      "Gazans are egyptians"

      And they emigrate to Gaza because they love to be bombed with napalm and experimental weapons of mass destruction, having no electricty, water rationed and in general living conditions that are 100% comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto or worse.

      Think again, please.

      "you don't have to be armenoid to look jewish"

      Of course, but it's a very typical tendency among Jews. More than among Armenians, incidentally, in spite of the name.

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    16. @Heraus: "You can freely discuss the issue, I'm not against political comments being made on this blog".

      Thanks. It seems unavoidable. But I'd rather keep the matter the more anthropological possible because it's pointless banging heads with Zionists, the same as with Nazis. There's people for which their own ethnic superiority is an unquestionable fact, be it "the superior race" or "God's chosen people" and there's very little we can do against that short of Maoist reeducation.

      In the rest, you and I are much in agreement. Relocating the Pied-Noirs was bad for the peoples inhabiting their destinations like Corses or Kanaks. Each time you move a million people there's another million people or several who's going to pay the consequences.

      However in the case of European Jews, I think that we Europeans owe them something that Palestinians do not. So, while not forced relocation, I'd really consider hosting them back as in pre-WWII or even pre-1492. But of course we Europeans owe a lot to many peoples of the World (Africans, Native Americans...) and I do not have "Biblical guilt" as all those Zionist Christians... so all is relative.

      If a comprehensive solution could be applied (right of return, single secular state...), I'm sure that a number of Zionist Jews, and likely the worst of them, would migrate back to Europe or North America. Many are recent arrivals who have zero roots other than mythology, very specially the Russians who were already returning in troves years ago, when the Israeli economy began being comparatively worse than the Russian one. Many others are recent North American migrants... But then there's a large number, say 3-4 million Israeli Jews who really have nowhere to go, so a comprehensive solution must unavoidably accept those colonists.

      But only with full reparation of the damages caused to Palestinians, who have already suffered 64 years too much. This is a case much like South Africa but worse in some aspects. Because in South Africa there was never any serious attempt to remove the Black denizens altogether, but rather marginalize them as quasi-slaves. In Palestine the ultimate goal is to totally remove all or most non-Jews from whatever they decide to call Israel. It's a genocide scenario: an ongoing one, a most terrible and painful one.

      So the lesser of my worries is what happens to the settlers. I demand justice for the natives now, at almost any cost.

      Delete
    17. "You can freely discuss the issue, I'm not against political comments being made on this blog."
      Thank you very much sir :).
      "My only comment about Israel is that I find the whole project a bit far-fetched, it's very 19th century-minded (zionism is just another avatar of the many national movements of those times, one which went as far as recreating a language and inventing surnames), a byproduct of romanticism. As far-fetched as hypothetical projects about Gypsies relocating to Pakistan when they've clearly lost touch with their partial ancestral land (they've assimilated many people during their course) ... I believe that me (a Pyrenean Gascon) learning Basque would be even less irrational than a German-speaking urban Jew from Baden migrating to the Middle-East to become a peasant in a desert ... which doesn't belong to him in the first place (I don't need to migrate to live my Bascophile fantasy, that's an asset)."
      now it's obvious that the zionism started as a response to european antisemitism. you may be a Gascon, but you're not immediently recognized as a Gascon by your physical appearence alone. that is, at the end, where the whole thing lies.
      "On an individual basis, I believe everyone is entitled to try a new life wherever he wishes to and Jews had done it for centuries with many of them migrating to the Holy Land out of religious and ethnic beliefs (just like there was an Armenian community in Jerusalem). Expelling autochtonous people - who had become Muslim because of historical events, but a large Christian community remained - to make this dream come true is despicable. Tel Aviv was enough to relocate Jews not wishing to live in Europe anymore after 1945 and agreements could have been found with local Arabs for food and water supply ... French Pieds-Noirs (who were Mediterranean migrants BTW) never colonized Algeria as deeply as Israelis did with Palestinian lands, they were mostly in towns as civil servants (and had been there since the 19th century). We know their fate in the 60s ...

      I don't wish for modern-day Israelis the fate of Pieds-Noirs but they should accept that the descendants of the people who were expelled are entitled to come back and live where their ancestors had been living for millenia. That or financial compensation for those willing to relinquish their claim. Property is a right one inherits from birth."
      well dude, far before zionism started, there were already pogroms done on the jews in "palestine". read this:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_plunder
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Safed_pogrom
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_pogrom
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed
      i'm sure there are more out there.

      Delete
    18. "I know from Behar 2010 that Palestinians do contrast quite a bit with peninsular Arabs and other "Neo-Arabs" like Iraqis, so their distinctiveness is not an illusion. I can only wait for Behar to do it (??? being a bit sarcastic: he's done good genetic research in Africa... but I doubt he will frontally go against the Zionist ideological paradigm by evidencing this fact of Palestinian local deep roots - it's "too political" and so far he's been trying hard to "demonstrate", with no success, the alleged local roots of Jews in Palestine). "
      Nah man. I don't think it's because of that. I think it's more like, because it's not true... just a thought.
      "Arab to me. He's quite neutral but I would not doubt his "arabness" if I met him out in the street (we host the only mosque in Bilbao, so it's full or Arabs and other Muslims, and delicious kebabs!)"
      Well of course jews and arabs don't exactly look alike. but that's mainly because of jewish endogamy.i've seen many jews that look like him. i mean they overlap greatly with him. and in that picture, i would honestly mistake him for a jew, though of course in video he would probably look more arab.
      "That's the problem: wishful Zionist thinking, only what the Great Sanhedrin (or equivalent) says can be accepted, no? The rest of us are more serious."
      Um, no, not really. I'm anti-theist. I just know that unrwa lies. and you still did'nt explain why the pallies need their own refugees agency, seperate from the rest of the world.
      "And they emigrate to Gaza because they love to be bombed with napalm and experimental weapons of mass destruction, having no electricty, water rationed and in general living conditions that are 100% comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto or worse."
      well i doubt very much that most of what you say is true. but the bombing they brought upon themselves. they should'nt bomb israeli civilians. and they immigrated to Gaza in order to die as Shahids, Idiot.
      "Of course, but it's a very typical tendency among Jews. More than among Armenians, incidentally, in spite of the name."
      well anthropologists have studied this issue. coon said that armenians are of extreme racial uniformity(guess what sub-race..), and studies done on the nose profiles of jews show that only 12% are "hooked", and those are found mostly on bavarian jews. and those studies were done 100 years ago, so it's not because of admixture.
      Love how you use zionist as an insult. typical for "palli freedom fighters".

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    19. There's people for which their own ethnic superiority is an unquestionable fact, be it "the superior race" or "God's chosen people" and there's very little we can do against that short of Maoist reeducation."
      I never said that. you just put words in my mouth. I don't belive the "chosen people" bullshit any more than you do. i just face the facts. the fact is that currently we jews want to live in israel, but for antisemitic reasons(there could be no other reason), the world is focused on us, even though there are like a 1000 more conflicts in the world. you are one of those that must be antisemite, cause you focus only on the israel-arab conflict. I can't interpet things like that any different way. sorry.
      "However in the case of European Jews, I think that we Europeans owe them something that Palestinians do not. So, while not forced relocation, I'd really consider hosting them back as in pre-WWII or even pre-1492. But of course we Europeans owe a lot to many peoples of the World (Africans, Native Americans...) and I do not have "Biblical guilt" as all those Zionist Christians... so all is relative. "
      I don't think most europeans and most jews will agree. actually, that's kinda insane. unless of course, you mean that a Pogrom will take place every few weeks...
      "If a comprehensive solution could be applied (right of return, single secular state...), I'm sure that a number of Zionist Jews, and likely the worst of them, would migrate back to Europe or North America. Many are recent arrivals who have zero roots other than mythology, very specially the Russians who were already returning in troves years ago, when the Israeli economy began being comparatively worse than the Russian one. Many others are recent North American migrants... "
      well a single secular state is imposibble since the pallies want to enforce sharia law and make the jews dhimmis. not really good IMO.
      I have canadian citizenship and i would never want to live there. been without a homeland for far too long to give it up now. also surfing all those anthro-boards makes me realize it's impossible for an ethnic jew to live anywhere except israel.
      "But then there's a large number, say 3-4 million Israeli Jews who really have nowhere to go, so a comprehensive solution must unavoidably accept those colonists."
      Just so you know, one side of my family came to Hebron in 1853. I a LOT of the pallies are more recent immigrants..
      "But only with full reparation of the damages caused to Palestinians, who have already suffered 64 years too much. This is a case much like South Africa but worse in some aspects. Because in South Africa there was never any serious attempt to remove the Black denizens altogether, but rather marginalize them as quasi-slaves. In Palestine the ultimate goal is to totally remove all or most non-Jews from whatever they decide to call Israel. It's a genocide scenario: an ongoing one, a most terrible and painful one. "
      any israeli arab will laugh at what you just said. israel is the best country in the middle-east for an arab to live in. here they don't get massacared like assad does to them in syria. which reminds me, why are'nt you focusing on that *tiny* conflict? i guess the reason would be really interesting..
      "So the lesser of my worries is what happens to the settlers. I demand justice for the natives now, at almost any cost."
      Demand a Kurdish state.

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    20. "... they immigrated to Gaza in order to die as Shahids, Idiot".

      It's clear who's the idiot here. I won't discuss a line more with you: I have as principle not to debate with Nazis.

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    21. "Demand a Kurdish state".

      As a matter of fact I do. I'm Basque after all: oppressed peoples can't but be solidary with each other: Kurdistan, Tamazhig, Palestine, West Sahara, Abjazia, Kosovo, Ireland, Corsica... I do not make distinctions other than between freedom fighters and imperialist invaders and oppressors.

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    22. It's clear who's the idiot here. I won't discuss a line more with you: I have as principle not to debate with Nazis."
      it's weird you calling me a nazi since one of my grandpa's a survivor and the other had some of his family perish. ironic...
      "I'm Basque after all"
      Basque don't want to throw other spainiards into the sea..
      "oppressed peoples can't but be solidary with each other: Kurdistan, Tamazhig, Palestine, West Sahara, Abjazia, Kosovo, Ireland, Corsica..."
      all those people have existed for a long time. so that's invalid.
      "I do not make distinctions other than between freedom fighters and imperialist invaders and oppressors."
      I practically LOLed.

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    23. BTW at least you don't use the Khazar theory like every other typical sleazy antisemite does. You're not that typical after all i guess.

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    24. Maju is not antisemitic, I believe he's just firmly convinced the fate of autochtonous Palestinians (even though they did not call themselves that way but that issue is meaningless) is sad and deserves compensation that should take the form of a right to return to one's ancestral lands.

      It's my stance to be honest though eventually I should not care. I must admit I fail to get how modern-day Israelis can live with the guilt that just 4 decades ago, the land they inhabit was populated by people who had done no harm to them. BTW, even as lovers of that land, how can you prefer to see it settled by pseudo-Jewish Russians than by autochtonous Palestinians (Muslim or Christian) ? Those horrendous American-like suburbs like Ariel are a crime ...

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    25. "I must admit I fail to get how modern-day Israelis can live with the guilt that just 4 decades ago, the land they inhabit was populated by people who had done no harm to them."
      it's not about 1967, come on you know that. we all know it's about 1948. and yes we can live with the guilt, cause in 1948 there was a plan for 2 countries, and ours was support to be really small. we accepted it, they started a war in order to throw us into the sea. we won(against like 4 armies). 1967, we won again. 1973, we won again(even though it was quite a fail from our side). they don't want to live side by side with us. for them it's either all of nothing. that's how we can live with the "guilt". though there are some jews here that spy for the other side. they're a minority but they control the media.
      "BTW, even as lovers of that land, how can you prefer to see it settled by pseudo-Jewish Russians than by autochtonous Palestinians (Muslim or Christian) ? Those horrendous American-like suburbs like Ariel are a crime ..."
      well i'm not sure ariel is settled by non-ethnic jews.. do u have a source?

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    26. Just for the record, the first time I ever heard of the Khazarian hypothesis (which should only affect Ashkenazim anyhow) was via a Jewish man named Cohen. He pointed me to Khazaria.com, where I first read some interesting stuff (it was many years ago) about Jewish origins and genetics.

      However who led me more directly to the Anatolian hypothesis was my father, who likes to read classical authors' original texts, and noticed in several conversations that, at the time of the Roman Genocide, there were already many many more Jews in Asia Minor than in Palestine (and also historical maps of the kind of this one).

      At the time I did not imagine they were not descendants of "true Jews" from Palestine but converts, but later I read a lot more about the origins of Christianity, the Essenians and the Malachites... and how proselytism was common among them. I read on Khazars (converts) and many other historical communities from North Africa to West Asia, Ethiopia and the Silk Road which converted to Judaism (and in some cases later to Christianity and/or Islam, which are essentially Judaic sects).

      And eventually I stumbled on the data which clearly had Western Jews clustering with... Cypriots. How curious!

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    27. From pure military aspects France won the war in Algeria too, it lost it on moral grounds though. The same will happen to Israel then : territorial conquest should not equal ethnic cleansing. You may have gained lands but you had no rights to expel autochtonous people to make place for your own kin. You had to administrate the locals (something western powers did, even at the heights of colonialism, from Crusade times to the 19th century). You've only created resentment amongst refugees and their descendants : current projects to make sure Israel remains Jewish-only will only backfire on you.

      In 50 years' time, the West won't be as powerful as it is now : we won't be here to help you anymore. China and India won't care about you. The new demographics in the US will deeply alter the importance of the Jewish question in US affairs. Europe will be a retirement home. You still have time to recognize your own faults (there is place for everybody in this land, it just means a Jewish-only state cannot be built there, be happy to live there in the first place, a state is just about civil servants and an army). But I fear the fate of Pieds-Noirs is what awaits many Israelis : you seem not to realize it.

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    28. "However who led me more directly to the Anatolian hypothesis was my father, who likes to read classical authors' original texts, and noticed in several conversations that, at the time of the Roman Genocide, there were already many many more Jews in Asia Minor than in Palestine (and also historical maps of the kind of this one). "
      they lived in anatolia. okay. does that mean they mixed with anatolians? you provide no proof.
      "At the time I did not imagine they were not descendants of "true Jews" from Palestine but converts, but later I read a lot more about the origins of Christianity, the Essenians and the Malachites... and how proselytism was common among them. I read on Khazars (converts) and many other historical communities from North Africa to West Asia, Ethiopia and the Silk Road which converted to Judaism (and in some cases later to Christianity and/or Islam, which are essentially Judaic sects). "
      People never really stood in line to convert. And those who did (like the khazar elite/people) eventually converted to christianity/islam.
      Btw Bilbao/ Basque area is known to be anti-israel/antisemite(not sure exact;y whichand don't erally care), cause every time maccabi tel aviv playes agains Caja Laboral Vittoria there's always some idiot waving the palestinian flag. hell maybe that's you.
      also there's no such thing as "palsetine" you know. the romans invented the name after the destruction of the temple in order to agnry the jews. "Palestine" is named after the Philistines, who were Cretan invaders themselves that settled in what is today Gaza. so even the name of those "people" is dervied from Cretans.

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    29. "You had to administrate the locals (something western powers did, even at the heights of colonialism, from Crusade times to the 19th century). "
      we do administrate them. they have their own authorithy. and you should see what they teach their kids in school too. great stuff indeed. and i can't agree with you comparing israel to western powers in the 19th century. i acn't even begin to point to you where you are wrong.
      "current projects to make sure Israel remains Jewish-only will only backfire on you."
      look we are willing to give them the west-bank. in 2000 and 2009 we made serious concessions to secure peace. all we asked was for them to recognize our right to exist. they said no. why? cause they are afraid of peace. simple as that. We are the ones who want peace more than anyone else in the region TBH.
      'The new demographics in the US will deeply alter the importance of the Jewish question in US affairs."
      Elaborate please.
      "You still have time to recognize your own faults (there is place for everybody in this land, it just means a Jewish-only state cannot be built there, be happy to live there in the first place, a state is just about civil servants and an army). But I fear the fate of Pieds-Noirs is what awaits many Israelis : you seem not to realize it."
      Dude i posted a few examples of pogroms that took place in israel long before zionism was even invented. This alone proves the importance of a state if you ask me.
      Did you see one of my previous posts that were directed towards you? I put these links in the end:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_plunder
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Safed_pogrom
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_pogrom
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed

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    30. "we do administrate them. they have their own authorithy. and you should see what they teach their kids in school too. great stuff indeed. and i can't agree with you comparing israel to western powers in the 19th century. i acn't even begin to point to you where you are wrong."

      In which way do you differ from us in the 19th century ? You know, I have a very open-minded vision of colonialism, I believe it was inevitable and I don't blame colonialism for everything. If you gave Palestinians full chances of success within a state named Israel, I would not care.


      "look we are willing to give them the west-bank. in 2000 and 2009 we made serious concessions to secure peace. all we asked was for them to recognize our right to exist. they said no. why? cause they are afraid of peace. simple as that. We are the ones who want peace more than anyone else in the region TBH."

      You cannot come and expel them, then expect them to recognize you as legit in this land ... You were not very polite when asking for living there to be honest ... You bought lands to peasants, you expelled them from their most ancient towns (come one, you've robbed them the whole Med coast !), ...

      "Elaborate please."

      Jews in America are being diluted through intermarriage and their political force will follow their fate. The European-American population is declining and won't be a majority by 2050. Its whole world, including its political sociology, will thus disappear. Mexican-Americans and Asian-Americans won't care about you. They'll just see that a powerful market - the Arab world - believes you're a burden.


      "Dude i posted a few examples of pogroms that took place in israel long before zionism was even invented. This alone proves the importance of a state if you ask me."

      Pogroms have always existed, then what ? Build your state in Antarctica if you wish to, nobody would have cared, but if you wanted to do it where Israel is now situated, the best would have been to consider there were autochtonous people living there. Somethig early zionists had a hard time to get. I blame their German-minded political reflexes.

      BTW I don't get why a one-state solution seems to disturb you. You won't erase Palestinian presence. They're here. They're growing. You'd rather live in the illusion of a homogeneous state than accept this land will be forever mixed. Add that a one-state solution would actually allow you to freely settle in the whole of the former mandate of Palestine. Except this time you'll have to acccept your Palestinian neighbours. A one-state solution is the only viable one BTW. The borders of Israel and Palestine as envisioned by the UN are totally irrational economically wise. You're forced into living together. And you'll eventually mix.

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    31. "In which way do you differ from us in the 19th century ? You know, I have a very open-minded vision of colonialism, I believe it was inevitable and I don't blame colonialism for everything. If you gave Palestinians full chances of success within a state named Israel, I would not care."
      We gaev them chances? they have their chances. there are many israeli arabs living in israel a good life today. most of them are willing to live next to the jews peacefully. the problem is the ones in the west bank in gaza that are ruled by terrorists.
      "You cannot come and expel them, then expect them to recognize you as legit in this land ... You were not very polite when asking for living there to be honest ... You bought lands to peasants, you expelled them from their most ancient towns (come one, you've robbed them the whole Med coast !), ..."
      well then i guess this is a point where we and them differ. BTW it's not "palestinians", it's israeli arabs. coming to denote an arab that lives in the land of israel/ modern israeli state. same like ashkenazi jew means a jew lives(or came from the communitity that started) in ashkenaz(germany) and a sephardi jew means a jew that lives( or were expelled from) spain, and a syrian arab means arab living in syria. arabs living in israel are just that, israeli arabs.
      "
      Jews in America are being diluted through intermarriage and their political force will follow their fate. The European-American population is declining and won't be a majority by 2050. Its whole world, including its political sociology, will thus disappear. Mexican-Americans and Asian-Americans won't care about you. They'll just see that a powerful market - the Arab world - believes you're a burden."
      I guess you're right..
      "Pogroms have always existed, then what ? Build your state in Antarctica if you wish to, nobody would have cared, but if you wanted to do it where Israel is now situated, the best would have been to consider there were autochtonous people living there. Somethig early zionists had a hard time to get. I blame their German-minded political reflexes. "
      early zionist leaders did indeed consider them. some said they belived they were ancient jews that were'nt expelled and had an open-minded view tpowards mixing with them(Yitzhak Ben-Zvi).
      "TW I don't get why a one-state solution seems to disturb you. You won't erase Palestinian presence. They're here. They're growing. You'd rather live in the illusion of a homogeneous state than accept this land will be forever mixed. Add that a one-state solution would actually allow you to freely settle in the whole of the former mandate of Palestine. Except this time you'll have to acccept your Palestinian neighbours. A one-state solution is the only viable one BTW. The borders of Israel and Palestine as envisioned by the UN are totally irrational economically wise. You're forced into living together. And you'll eventually mix."
      well i actually don't have a problem with one state solution. it's just we can never trust them and they'll try to throw us into the sea.
      "You'd rather live in the illusion of a homogeneous state than accept this land will be forever mixed. "
      actually i suspect that in the next few years a palestinain state will rise in the west bank, because we will simply give it to them. we can't keep controlling them forever(even though in present we are'nt really controlling them), because like you said, they're growing. it's a demographic suicide to keep the "palestinian authorithy" alive.
      "A one-state solution is the only viable one BTW. "
      No. It's the worst one. Because like i said, we can't trust them. A 2-state solution seems more viable to me. even though in that solution the West Bank will turn into another Gaza, that is to say, rockets being fired regularly onto israeli cities. But we're ready to pay that price.

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  8. Maju summed it up well : modern Jewish-Israelis are not "native" so they don't really comply with my rules but I'd love making samples of the many Jewish communities in Western Eurasia, provided they still exist. Actually, I did make such samples ... but I'd fear being accused of antisemitism, that's why I don't upload them.

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  9. You won't be accused of anti-semitism. trust me. and by who will you be accused exactly?

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    1. Then I'll upload a sample about Oran's Jews. I won't upload samples of European Jews though, albeit in private mode maybe.

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    2. "Then I'll upload a sample about Oran's Jews"
      Thank you. :)
      "I won't upload samples of European Jews though"
      why not?

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  10. I'm going to unsubscribe, Heraus, because it feels extremely painful to read the Neo-Nazi mentality of Amichai (more so in a Jew). In my blogs he'd be censored by now: zero tolerance against Fascism!

    As a side note: I'd recommend that you recover the "classical" view for your blog. This format causes me a lot of delays and often the need to reload (using Firefox in Ubuntu). Part may be because of the new Blogger format with state extensions and the massive redirects it implies but most seems to be the new format you are using, by which I see the general blog in the background and the specific page in the foreground (similar to images).

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    1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    2. Please, let's cease this pointless debate. I'm forced into censoring your last post. I'll post a sample on Tunisian Jews, let's hope we'll get back to normal discussions.

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  11. We'll discuss the issue elsewhere indeed, if needed.

    There's indeed a problem with the magazine format of blogger, I'll try to revert back to the old presentation.

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I've chosen to let people comment freely on my posts. Nevertheless, you'll lose your time taunting me and calling me a fascist (which I'm really not) : I pray you to read my introduction which will reassure that my intentions genuinely aim at achieving amateurish knowledge. I understand that you may not share my passion for the history of the peopling of the World, just don't let me know as clear conscience gained by bashing a humble documentary work is useless.